Author Topic: Cut offs  (Read 5728 times)

bizsoc321

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Cut offs
« on: June 14, 2016, 05:44:57 PM »
How are these new cut off times compared to 2010. I ran it back then and thought the cut offs were later. If Barr Camp closes at 1030 and I'm in the last wave, I only have 3 hours 5 minutes. As opposed to someone that starts at 7 exactly, they have 3 hours 30 minutes. Am I missing something here? I hope. Thanks for any clarity.

John Garner

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Re: Cut offs
« Reply #1 on: June 15, 2016, 02:40:19 PM »
The effective on-course cutoff times are actually relaxed a bit compared to 2010.

See the response by 'Admin' at
http://pikespeakmarathon.org/forum/index.php?topic=55.msg349#msg349

In 2010, the cutoff at Barr Camp was 10am for wave 1, 10:30am for wave 2. Now it is just 10:30 for everybody. With the last wave starting at 7:22am (or so), the effective cutoff time is now 3:08 vs 3:00.

The 6:30 cutoff at the summit for the Ascent (and 10:00 at the finish line for the marathon) is based on your start time and enforced by the timing crew.

EDIT: Fixed the math error in the cutoff times (Thanks to John Vomastic for noting that I should not do math in my head when I'm tired. :-) )
« Last Edit: June 17, 2016, 07:20:23 AM by John Garner »

bizsoc321

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Re: Cut offs
« Reply #2 on: June 16, 2016, 05:47:52 PM »
I understand but as I stated the people that start at 7 have till 1030 to make it to Barr. I only start at 7:22, I have only 3:08 to make it. I'm understanding it used to be 3:00 to Barr. I will guarantee I am going to be more in danger of missing that cutoff than the people that start at 7. Maybe the wave start will be of a good benefit even for the slow runners. Thanks for the response.

John Garner

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Re: Cut offs
« Reply #3 on: June 17, 2016, 07:38:47 AM »
The reports from the folks who started in the later waves reported that the wave start had a huge positive impact. It sounded like the old logjam at the first aid station was completely gone, as everybody I talked to reported that at no point did they have to stop and wait for the trail to clear.

As a result, the old advice to "go out fast to get in front of everybody who went out too fast" is no longer valid and will have a massive negative impact on your race. 



bizsoc321

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Re: Cut offs
« Reply #4 on: June 19, 2016, 06:21:03 AM »
I also read the pacing chart for a 630 finish time and there are asterisks after cut offs at Barr and A Frame because if you run that pace you will not make those cut offs. But would make the finish cutoff. Any thoughts on this from experienced runners who can relate to us mortals in the back of the pack? Thanks.

Vomastic

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Re: Cut offs
« Reply #5 on: June 19, 2016, 10:24:25 AM »
I will be 73 on race day and am a back of the pack walker and this will be my tenth consecutive PPA.  Before I give you any advice, please provide :
Your qualifying race and time,
Your age,
The elevation where you live and/or train.

The pace chart is based on the performance of Matt Carpenter.  Unless you have a world-class VO2 Max and do extensive training above 10,000 feet, YOU WILL LOSE TIME, relative to the pace chart, as the race progresses, but I still use it because it is the best feedback regarding whether you are in danger of missing the cutoffs.

If I was the race director, I may not have given the eight extra minutes for the cutoff times.  If the race conditions are not ideal, the last thing you want is a lot of slow runners above timberline.
« Last Edit: June 19, 2016, 10:35:17 AM by Vomastic »

bizsoc321

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Re: Cut offs
« Reply #6 on: June 21, 2016, 07:44:28 AM »
Thanks for your interest in helping. I did run The Ascent in 2010. Finished in 553. I do believe I could have run some between NoName and Barr but stayed conservative. I'm from PA so no altitude but I've been on Pikes Peak many times. I summited with my grandson last August. Also back in 2008 with my late wife. I'm working on leg strength and not worried about speed. Mixing long road runs in with trails with rocky hills. I'm 6 years older than 2010 but still running strong with no injuries yet. I have plans on staying overnight at Barr in August and doing some hiking at 10000 ft. It's quite a challenge which I really enjoy. Thanks.

Vomastic

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Re: Cut offs
« Reply #7 on: June 23, 2016, 02:46:09 PM »
Based on your qual time, you will probably be near or in the last wave.  Long runs are good, since you will be spending six hours (hopefully less) in the PPA.  If you get a chance in August (and its before your taper), do a trial run to Barr Camp or better all the way to the top.  There is free parking along Manitou Ave east of the start line and in Memorial Park nearby.  There is always room early in the morning before the tourists arrive.

I recommend that you make a pace card.  I think it is especially important for slow runners and useful for all first timers.  For slow runners use a 5:30 finish time and keep in mind that you will lose time as the race progresses because it is based on Matt Carpenter's pace. 

Wave starts (1 minute apart) are a great thing for first time runners.  Just try to stay with the group and not race to the front.  I walk the entire course including the streets in town.  Last year (2015) I started in wave 21 and most runners passed me before the CoG RR station.  Read Matt Carpenter's warnings about starting too fast (Skyrunner.com, click on course description)

Below is a list of points and times for a 5:30 finish time.  It contains more points than Matt's Pace Chart.  I included my times for the 2015 PPA.  If you are on time or ahead you can relax a bit and save your energy for the last 3 miles above timberline.  If you are 6-10 minutes behind at the check points, you are OK, but you may want to pick up the pace a bit.  10 minutes or more, and falling farther behind at each succeeding point is not good.  If you did not make the original cutoff times of 3:00 hours at Barr Camp and 4:15 at A-Frame, it could be difficult to make the 6:30 cutoff at the finish.  30 minute miles is a good pace for slow runners above timberline.  If you are struggling, 40 minute miles may be difficult.

Check Point  Hours:Minutes (My Times 2015 PPA)
Start           0:0
Ruxton  Ave       0:8   (6:11)
Hydro Street        0:21 (19:53)
Join Barr Trail (AS)     0:31 (30.22)
Incline Overlook (AS)    1:02  (1:01:24)
Top of Ws                1:06  (1:07:50)
Rock Arch
No Name Creek (AS)   1:37  (1:38:46)
Bob's Road (AS)     1:59  (2:06:02) (Late Hack)
7.8 Mile Sign        2:11  (2:13:12)
1/2 mile to Barr  Sign  2:33  (2:36:43)
Barr Camp (AS)     2:48  (2:50:51)
Bottomless Pitt Sign     3:14  (3:17:24)
End BP Switchback   3:37  (3:37:36)
A-Frame (AS)                (4:4:55)
A-Frame Timing Mats 3:55  (4:08:59)
2 to go Sign        4:28  (4:43:16)
Cirque (AS)        4:46  (5:09:22)
1 to go sign        4:56  (5:14:46)
Start 16 Gold Stairs     5:22  (5:36:54)
Finish           5:30  (5:52:07)
AS=Aid Station

I will try to publish photos of the checkpoints and my pace card at a later date

khgfun

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Re: Cut offs
« Reply #8 on: July 05, 2016, 05:14:03 PM »
In 2015 (my 3rd PPA), I started in the 2nd to last wave I think. Because I had been battling a bad case of plantar fasciitis for nearly a year, I trained almost exclusively by walking on a treadmill at high incline %, and I ran 1 minute and walked 1 minute on the road up to the trail which meant I wasn't passing a lot of people who were in my wave.  What I found, however, was that while the logjam was gone (which was great), I was stuck most of the time behind some fairly slow walkers for extensive periods of time with little to no ability to get around them in the lower elevations.  I found that to be really frustrating.  I did, however, make all the cutoffs with time to spare.  My 2015 time was 8-9 minutes slower than my 2014 time due to that but also due to stopping for a lot of pictures that a friend wanted to take and a bathroom stop my friends needed.  I'm healthier than last year (so far), so I'm hoping I can get ahead of some of the walkers who are slower than me by doing more (but conservative) running in town.  I'm from FL so there are no mountains to train on.

Tim Schumacher

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Re: Cut offs
« Reply #9 on: July 26, 2016, 08:06:37 AM »
I understand but as I stated the people that start at 7 have till 1030 to make it to Barr. I only start at 7:22, I have only 3:08 to make it. I'm understanding it used to be 3:00 to Barr. I will guarantee I am going to be more in danger of missing that cutoff than the people that start at 7. Maybe the wave start will be of a good benefit even for the slow runners. Thanks for the response.
Don't be jealous of the earlier wavers having more time to make the cutoffs.  If they need the extra time they aren't finishing because they are probably injured.

My 5th PPA and I'm always at the back of the pack and close to the A-Frame cutoff.  Last year was the best race yet with the new wave format.  You could maintain a more natural pace on the Ws from the start.  As for new cutoffs, they are relaxed at Barr and A-Frame ,as noted.  Just go by your elapsed time to know if you are in trouble or not.  You WILL be in trouble if you don't hit Barr Camp by at least 2:50 elapsed.  I've hit A-Frame close to 4:15 before and finished under 6:30 - but you're gonna have work ahead of you.

My race plan that's worked for me...hump it (work steady; don't take a rest) until A-Frame.  If you're there in 4:05 or so, take a 5 min rest to celebrate as you WILL finish in time.  Above A-Frame I plan for 40 min miles and rest up to 5 full mins at the 2 to go and 1 to go marks.  Hasn't failed me yet.  ;)  The 1st mile above treeline is actually relatively pleasant and flat so look forward to that.  Won't talk about the 2nd and 3rd miles...

My other advice for first time slow people - don't blow your race on asphalt.  Some of the steepest parts of the course are in town.  When there's a need to hike be among the first to hike - but go strong.  Also, if you don't know the course well enough to know when you can run for a spell and when the flat/downhill is short - don't run at all; just stay steady hiking with a strong pace.  Switching gears too much is a waste of energy, IMO.

bizsoc321

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Re: Cut offs
« Reply #10 on: July 28, 2016, 03:58:07 PM »
This is great advice and sounds exactly what I did in 2010. I jogged to The Cog and started hiking there. Stopped only once above Barr to pee. I am planning on jogging a bit between no name and Barr through the woods. Slow but steady, thanks for the advice. Would be great to beat 550 but just finishing under 630 will be a victory.