Author Topic: Extra Doubler Fee  (Read 8312 times)

Tyler

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 12
Extra Doubler Fee
« on: February 12, 2015, 10:38:49 AM »
Charging a mandatory extra $50 for a Doubler shirt is a bad move, sure to alienate your most ardent fans.

A big complaint about this otherwise extremely well run race series is the poor swag relative to the prestige of the event.
The shirts have been ugly and unwearable the last 9 years; the 50th anniversary jacket is the only swag I'll wear.

Take a cue from the Bolder Boulder and offer different levels of swag for different fees, and better swag in general.

Doublers should have the option of eliminating one (or both) of the race shirts in favor of the Doubler shirt.
Or no shirt at all.
How many of the Doublers in the past have ordered the (long delayed) extra doubler shirt at ~$30?  I never have.

Or, perhaps as a gesture of good faith, you should throw in the Doubler shirt to those 100 or so finishers as a celebration of that accomplishment, and to acknowledge what are likely your biggest fans and promoters.

On my first year running the Ascent, I was 1 of 4 from my Kansas town.  Now, there are over 80 of us, and we bring our families in tow. 
Positive word of mouth is largely responsible for this change, and we bring a lot of money to the Manitou community.

John Garner

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 117
Re: Extra Doubler Fee
« Reply #1 on: February 12, 2015, 12:23:18 PM »
I've forwarded your post to the Race Director.

As an aside, I'm also one of the folks who intends to double this year. After 9 years, I figured why not. :-)

--john

bcoffelt

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 7
Re: Extra Doubler Fee
« Reply #2 on: February 16, 2015, 06:18:45 PM »
I did my first double in 1988 just to see if I could do it. In the following years we received a Doubler Photo which I thought was pretty cool. I've ordered the extra Doubler Shirt most years but, I don't run for swag. I run for the love of running, the love of the mountain and, the love for my fellow runners.

Tyler

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 12
Re: Extra Doubler Fee
« Reply #3 on: February 18, 2015, 07:14:48 PM »
I agree that it's not about the swag.
I'd frankly rather have no swag at all, and reduce the race fees.

As my favorite race, and a real accomplishment, I wouldn't mind wearing gear from and promoting this race.
But, it's been so ugly, ill-fitting, and of such poor quality that this isn't possible.

Charging doublers 3x for unwanted swag is poor form.

Solutions:
Registration fees for each race are $10 less with no swag option.
Doubler shirt fee is optional for those wanting a doubler shirt.
And for all options, please disclose the appearance and quality of the shirts before registration so that people can make an informed decision.

You aren't out any money for shirts you don't have to make, and your racers and fans don't feel taken advantage of.

John Garner

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 117
Re: Extra Doubler Fee
« Reply #4 on: February 19, 2015, 09:19:47 PM »
After reading the comments here and seeing the mass confusion with the way in which I originally stated the purpose of the new policy, I've updated the registration page to better explain the reasoning behind the $50 fee (which I misunderstood at first and didn't clue into until recently).

The fee is there to discourage (but not outright prohibit) folks from doubling. Why? The race sells out. Quickly. Folks who register for the double eat up two slots. When you register to double, somebody else will be denied the ability to register in one of the two races. Last year, over 130 folks registered to double. This prevented 130+ other people from participating in one of the two races.

On the flip side, Pikes Peak is billed as the ultimate challenge. For some folks, that means running both races. I understand that, I want to register for both this year too, as this will be my 10th year. But having the fee there forces me to realize the implications of that decision.

--john

Tyler

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 12
Re: Extra Doubler Fee
« Reply #5 on: February 20, 2015, 09:10:24 AM »
I appreciate the follow-up, John, and the perspective.

You have a race to run, and want the most participants possible.
I apologize if I came across as overly negative.
Your race seems to cross the worlds of elite races where swag/accommodations are top notch, and the grass roots feel of trail and ultra races, where cost is kept low and volunteerism heavy.
Looking back at my complaints, I think I was trying to get the best of both worlds, and that's impractical.

I hope that this doesn't create at atmosphere where doublers are seen as bad citizens, and that we continue to be allowed the option.

Thanks again.
« Last Edit: February 20, 2015, 09:20:49 AM by Tyler »

John Garner

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 117
Re: Extra Doubler Fee
« Reply #6 on: February 20, 2015, 10:41:58 AM »
Your race seems to cross the worlds of elite races where swag/accommodations are top notch, and the grass roots feel of trail and ultra races, where cost is kept low and volunteerism heavy.

I think you nailed it. Many on the PPM Board are also trying to get the best of both worlds, to find that balance between running a top notch race while trying to keep costs low (hard to believe at $150, but when you see the line of 15 passenger vans down Manitou ave at 4:30am on Saturday morning you know where a lot of that money is going.)

We keep making improvements (how many other races have timing locations at 12,000ft?), tweaking things, and soliciting feedback to make sure that we are not overlooking some big issues. Some things, like the swag, puts us in a bit of a bind in that what one person loves another will hate. But there have been clear changes over the past few years, both for the elite runners (prize money bounties for CR's) and middle of the pack runner (the constant tweaks to actually slow down registration to avoid turning it into a de facto lottery, or splits at noname, barr camp, and a-frame).

I hope that this doesn't create at atmosphere where doublers are seen as bad citizens, and that we continue to be allowed the option.

That would be the goal with the new policy; to make folks think about it but otherwise still permit them to do so. After all, I fully intend to double this year too (baring any injuries that would knock me out of the PPM). What started as a misunderstanding between friends took on a life of its own, and it was time to try and slow it down a bit. Of course, I think if they held the PPM on Saturday and the PPM on Sunday, the number of doublers would drop like a rock. :-) 


--john

hillclimber

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 12
Re: Extra Doubler Fee
« Reply #7 on: February 20, 2015, 11:54:52 AM »
PPM Saturday and PPA Sunday is a very interesting idea!  That may make it possible for some to do the Ascent on Sunday and still travel home that evening and not have to take Monday off for travel.

Tyler

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 12
Re: Extra Doubler Fee
« Reply #8 on: February 20, 2015, 02:55:54 PM »
Interesting idea with switching order of the races.

I really enjoy crossing the finish line coming into Manitou as the finale.
Would be a different experience and likely less climactic to come into the peak fully spent.

Agree that it would allow more people to leave town Sunday afternoon (and also get into town later on the forward end), and therefore have less positive impact to local businesses.

Also, I don't think it would decrease the number of doublers.
On the contrary, I think that the people who often double would instead create their own new challenge, the double-double; and go ahead and do the descent on Sunday on their own.

For example, last year I did the Incline on Friday afternoon for my own version of 'the triple'.
« Last Edit: February 20, 2015, 03:08:44 PM by Tyler »

John Garner

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 117
Re: Extra Doubler Fee
« Reply #9 on: February 21, 2015, 10:22:37 AM »
Just to be clear, the idea of switching the order of the races is a bit of a joke, the idea being that the PPM leaves your legs totally wasted from the downhill vs the PPA where you are more or less good to go for another round after a nice nap and some food. (For the last 4 years I had no issues slogging a 60-80lb pack to and from the cirque aid station the day after I ran the PPA, there is no way I could have done it if I ran the PPM the day before.)

For many of the reasons folks have indicated, I would not propose ever changing the order of the two races.

Besides, for those who want to really pull off something amazing, there is the "Colorado Double." Every so often, the LT100 is held on the same weekend as the PPM. As far as I know, only one person has ever completed both the LT100 and PPM on the same weekend.


Tyler

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 12
Re: Extra Doubler Fee
« Reply #10 on: February 22, 2015, 12:56:22 PM »
Sure, I took the order of races as hypothetical.

LT100 is on the bucket list, and I know some people use the double as a warm-up for it, when it's been on successive weekends.

Speaking of timing of PPA/PPM, if you were ever to change the timing of it, I know a lot of people would appreciate it being the 2nd weekend of August, to help avoid the start of the school year, which is the 3rd week of August in many parts of the country.
Would love to bring my family along and make a week of it in Manitou.  The kids would love the arcade.

bradg33

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 5
Re: Extra Doubler Fee
« Reply #11 on: February 23, 2015, 09:48:02 AM »
Just to be clear, the idea of switching the order of the races is a bit of a joke, the idea being that the PPM leaves your legs totally wasted from the downhill vs the PPA where you are more or less good to go for another round after a nice nap and some food. (For the last 4 years I had no issues slogging a 60-80lb pack to and from the cirque aid station the day after I ran the PPA, there is no way I could have done it if I ran the PPM the day before.)

For many of the reasons folks have indicated, I would not propose ever changing the order of the two races.

Besides, for those who want to really pull off something amazing, there is the "Colorado Double." Every so often, the LT100 is held on the same weekend as the PPM. As far as I know, only one person has ever completed both the LT100 and PPM on the same weekend.

I believe someone did the "Colorado Double" last year.  It's hearsay, of course, but I ran part of last year's PPM with a gentleman who was telling me about his starting-line conversation with a runner who had completed the LT100 the Saturday prior and got down to Manitou for the PPM on Sunday.  To the extent that's true, talk about a beast of a human being.  To put it in perspective, the LT100 starts at, I think, 4am on Saturday.  The PPM started at 7am on Sunday, a mere 27 hours later.  That means the runner would have completed the LT100 in well under 24 hours, made the 2:20 drive to Manitou (per Google maps), and completed another 26.2 miles.  Even if he had a good buddy to do the driving while he slept, that's mind-boggling. 

Seth Jayson

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 20
Re: Extra Doubler Fee
« Reply #12 on: March 17, 2015, 02:55:37 PM »
I'm glad you explain the fee as a disincentive. I've never thought about it that way. I don't think it's high enough to be a great disincentive, but since you mention leaving spots open for others, I will find it much easier not to try to maximize my trip out this year and double. The marathon will be good enough for me. If I can keep from seeing double on the way down, maybe I'll even be able to run the 2nd half this time.

FlyGirl

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 18
Re: Extra Doubler Fee
« Reply #13 on: March 19, 2015, 10:48:54 AM »
I thought the fee for the Double this year was for a Doubler's Jacket?

I don't mind paying the extra.  I saw it coming and budgeted for it.  This will be my third Double in a row, but I don't plan on doing anything but volunteering and cheering next year.  That way someone else CAN have a chance.  This year, though?  There are reasons I signed up for both again, but they're personal.

Stephen Peterson

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 22
Re: Extra Doubler Fee
« Reply #14 on: March 19, 2015, 06:43:14 PM »
I do hope the Doubler's get a little something for the $50 fee.