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Training / Re: FFF – Flatlander, First timer, Finisher of PPA, thoughts
« Last post by John Garner on January 03, 2020, 06:42:20 PM »
The 1:40 Cutoff at No Name Creek for both Runs is a ~5:40 Ascent pace, so you may need to be faster to No Name than you were last year (and unless it is changed it will predictably catch a LOT of people off guard who simply won't have known, and who will complain bitterly of the conga line in the W's prevented them from going faster).
The 3:10 cutoff at Barr Camp is actually slower than before, and is a 6:15 pace, so you can see it's all over the map.

Side note: The cutoffs were based on the last few years of results. We found that the number of folks who got to NoName after 1:40 and made it to the summit under 6:30 were outnumbered 10:1 by the folks who failed. Matt's pace calculator is based on a runner who can, well, run to the summit and not drop any time above treeline because they did the requisite training up there. For 99% of the runners it tends to overestimate the time to get to the earlier splits and underestimate the time for the subsequent ones.  For power hikers it is way off at the start as most will at least run to Ruxton or even Hydro, cutting 8-12 minutes off of the anticipated NoName split for their eventual pace. The flip side of this is why the upper cutoffs actually went a bit longer than before.

--john
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Training / Re: FFF – Flatlander, First timer, Finisher of PPA, thoughts
« Last post by Jasper on January 03, 2020, 05:44:56 PM »
Nice going epictetus, sounds perfect.

Do check the Cutoffs this year, the page is updated.
https://www.pikespeakmarathon.org/Rules.shtml

The 1:40 Cutoff at No Name Creek for both Runs is a ~5:40 Ascent pace, so you may need to be faster to No Name than you were last year (and unless it is changed it will predictably catch a LOT of people off guard who simply won't have known, and who will complain bitterly of the conga line in the W's prevented them from going faster).
The 3:10 cutoff at Barr Camp is actually slower than before, and is a 6:15 pace, so you can see it's all over the map.
Keep Up the Good Work!

And dnavarro927
IDK about weights. I'd just say start at 1-2hour 11% Treadmill on weekends now, go to 2Hours late in March and into April, 3hour in May/June, and 4 hours on Treadmill, at a combo of 11% and 15% in July into August.

There have been some 'Treadmill Equivalents' of the Ascent, posted on this site over the last 15 years... click on my name and 'Send PM' and I'll send them to you in a Zip File.

Once you've done 4 Hours a few times on Treadmill at 11% and 15%, you KNOW you're as ready as you can be coming from even Sea Level. Just load those drinks into a 6-pack bottle holder you keep close, and bring a nice big towel!
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Training / Re: FFF – Flatlander, First timer, Finisher of PPA, thoughts
« Last post by dnavarro927 on January 03, 2020, 02:31:55 PM »
This is great, thanks for sharing.

I'll be giving the PPA a go this year, so this information is helpful.  I am a Chicagoan, so obviously pretty flat over here, but none the less my goal will be to finish under 5 hours (4:59:59).  And yup...I know it's a lofty goal, so we'll see.

My half marathon time is 1:37 with about a solid five weeks of training.  Prior to that, I already had a good level of fitness...in previoius 5k, 10k and triathlons, would finish in the top 10%.  Now, saying all that, I know racing at elevation will completely flip the script and quite rudely slap me in the face with some good ol oxygen deprivation...can't wait, ha!

I've looked at last years times, specifically the people form the flat land states that finished under the cut-off:
Fastest: 3:00:13
Slowest: 6:29:48
Average:5:14:43

The clear training method I've found is to embrace the treadmill at full incline.  Aside from that I have a couple hills roughly 250 to 500 meters in length.  Would it be at all beneficial to tackle that with a weighted vest (20 - 40lbs)?  Doing it X amount of times, maybe mixing in running after every 5 climbs for example?  Just trying to think what else can be done to compliment the treadmill work.  Stairs?

As of today, I have a decent base where I can comfortably run 4-5 miles @7:45 pace over small rolling hills.  Seeing that I live in a flat area, should keep building that base (a.k.a. mileage) work with straight road/trail/treadmill running to build cardio?  Or does that not matter with an event like this?
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Training / FFF – Flatlander, First timer, Finisher of PPA, thoughts
« Last post by epictetus on November 25, 2019, 09:17:25 AM »
I thought I’d make a post (my first), to share my experiences as a FFF, since I gained so much good advise on these forums to train and prepare.

My situation: I live in a flat state, where my running routes typically was between 200 – 900ft elevation, a far cry from the 7000 – 14,000ft of the event.  I only ran two half marathons in my life, one in CO (was flat but at 6500ft) at 2:27 in 2017, so didn’t qualify, then another in my home state at 2:09 in 2018.  I have a chronic knee injury that prevents me from training too hard/long, so mileage was minimal (for the halfs usually 10- 15 a week).

My training: I took advise from these forums and youtube videos to train on treadmills at high % gradients to help replicate the near constant uphill nature of this race.  I started training in January specifically for this race, and on average only twice a week.  Each training session was 40 – 100 minutes, between 10-15% grade, always at 3mph (20min/mile).  Rarely, I did a third day, between 20 -40 minutes on a stair climbing (the escalator type).

Nutrition: Day before was normal, no carb loading, just my typical 3 meals.  I woke up at 4:45am, and between then and race start, had two bananas, two yogurts, some electrolyte beverage, and 2 Excedrin.  During race, I drank water and electrolyte beverages, and only at Cliff Blocks energy chews (one chew basically every mile, so two packs of 6), and another Excedrin.

Gear: I wore shorts/tshirt, hat, belt pack with two water containers.  I’m from an extremely cold state, so did not worry/care about the peak being cold and windy, and had no issues being up there two hours after the race outside (cheering on other runners, and talking with runners).

The race: The first mile I ran, and was about a 12 minute pace, then got the trail and fast hiked the rest.  I never “pushed” myself hard until the last 2 miles, which I picked up the pace to finish on time.  I did finish with a time right under 6:20.  I greatly enjoyed the race since I didn’t go too hard early, and actually finished with a smile and energy in the tank.

Final thoughts: I definitely will be doing the PPA again, possibly the PPM but not sure if it would trash my knee for good.  Going up is fine on my knee, down is a different story.  I’m training the exact same way for next years event.  Literally not going to change a thing.  Going for finish, rather than PR made the race actually fun, which I haven’t experienced in the last 25 years of running, so that I loved.  Training on incline is a MUST.  I was around some CO natives, one a multiple time PPA finisher, another a two time Leadville 100 finisher, but neither finished.  Both had ankle/calf cramping from not training going up hill constantly. 

If you have any questions, I’d be happy to address them!  Lastly, have fun, you can do it!
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General Discussion / Re: Any PPA runners planning to run back down too?
« Last post by goatleg on August 23, 2019, 10:56:07 AM »
Jasper, thanks for your insight. My first PPA or time on the Barr trail, so appreciate the note. I certainly didn't want to or plan to get in anyone's way, regardless. It hadn't occurred to me that runners ("racers" in this case) might feel like the PPA participants have the mountain / trail exclusively reserved for the day and don't expect any courteous downhill traffic at all. Whether that's an accurate reflection of the rights of PPA participants or not, you bring up a great point: It's an assumption and an attitude I should take into consideration. I'm not here to piss anyone off.
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General Discussion / Re: Any PPA runners planning to run back down too?
« Last post by Jasper on August 21, 2019, 04:49:44 PM »
Well, nobody's touching this one... but I have an opinion. Smile.
If the weather is good enough for you to wait for everyone to finish and then head back down, sure.

With 1943 entries total, 'going back down' could be a huge disservice to those trying to finish, maybe get a PR, or make the cutoffs and get a coveted Finisher's shirt, that you might impede, who are in the last, hardest miles, near the top, still coming up, while you've already finished and ease back down. Surely you would not want bunches of folks casually heading back down while you're coming up. And I believe that's why I have NEVER seen anyone do it, in 13 Ascents (which is not that many comparatively).

But if you plan to wait until after... then hey, have some fun... if the weather cooperates. And on any single given day, it might, or it might not.

Mtn there always, with no race up it every other day but 3 all year, might be better to come back any other weekend, especially on a day you can PICK based on forecasted Sunny all day, and do the up and down, and just try to get the best Ascent you can on Saturday, and hit the Vans before the Weather unleashes (if in fact that's what the weather does).

But if you wait until folks aren't coming up any more, and the Weather is still good, then sure. And enjoy it!

Good Luck.
Jasper
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General Discussion / Any PPA runners planning to run back down too?
« Last post by goatleg on August 18, 2019, 09:59:30 PM »
I'm playing it by ear, but hoping to run down as well. Will make the call at the top. Curious, do any other PPA runners do that as well, or do they all just sign up for the marathon?
I love trail running, but am not much of a competitive racer, so I'm just in it for the experience.
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Race Info / Re: Question for John re: Bib Assignments
« Last post by John Garner on August 07, 2019, 01:34:53 PM »
A few things changed. Some of these you already noticed and your logic is mostly in line with how things worked out this year.

1) 2018 Ascent times were doubled to produce estimated ascent times. Call it a small consolation prize for last year's ascent being cut short.

2) Marathon time is now just Ascent time.  So a 2:41 marathon is equivalent to a 2:41 ascent. As I looked at the data from the past few years it was a bit noisy and the trend line was close enough to 1:1 that I just went with it vs the old quadratic equation.

3) We factored in the 2019 GoG/SRTR/BTMR times for everybody again. As usual, the fastest estimated ascent time was used.  I can't remember the conversion factors I used off the top of my head (it is on a really big spreadsheet at my house right now). So there may be some odd inversions where you see somebody who qualified with a 3:45 marathon but is seeded into wave 1 because they rocked the BTMR. 

4) The Golden Trail Series stacked the 1st wave of the PPM. Normally we would have at most 20 elite runners total and they would all fit in the <99 range along with the previous years award winners and other notable folks. But with almost 50 of them this year (on top of the higher than usual number of recent former winners) they spilled up to bib #120. I then allocated the remaining 80 slots in the 1xx bib range so that there was a 50/50 male/female split in wave 1 when it was all said and done. 

The last one is the reason why your estimation was a bit off and the slowest "Estimated Ascent Time" for a male went from 3:12 (or so) in 2018 to 2:57(ish) in 2019. It is also why if you are a male who is accustomed to doing well at these sorts of events in terms of the overall rankings, it is best to just check your ego in at sweat check.

Another side note is that 2018 was a super fast year at the pointy end of the race. We had 5 folks under 3:40 for the first time ever. I was used to sitting at the finish line, cheering on the overall winner, and then having 10 minutes to double check things and grab a bite to eat before the next guy came in. Last year, the first guy came in and then the next 4 were right on top of him and it just got crazy after that.

And for anybody else who read this far, I'd be remiss if I didn't link to an older thread about how your starting wave impacts your overall time: https://pikespeakmarathon.org/forum/index.php?topic=140.0   :)


--john
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Race Info / Question for John re: Bib Assignments
« Last post by shiggins on August 07, 2019, 10:29:56 AM »
Hey John,

Just curious if I'm correct in assuming bib assignment didn't work the same way as previous years?

From what I can tell marathon qualifying times were treated the same as ascent times this year, where that wasn't the case before. Per formulas you've posted before it looked like a 2:41 marathon would be the equivalent of ~3:01 ascent in the past. But this year it appears to be equivalent to a 2:21 ascent time for bib assignments.

I'm guessing this had to do with the fact that last year's ascent wasn't run in full and as such qualifiers via the ascent had their times calculated by using time to Barr Camp X 2, which resulted in a lot more folks receiving low bibs from running the ascent than in a typical year and not wanting to make things unfair for flat marathon qualifiers. For reference, this year's slowest ascent qualifier in wave 1 was 2:53 vs 3:12 last year. Last year was not an unusually fast year at PPM either.

I ask b/c I'm a dork and I had calculated anticipated bib numbers for myself and a few friends using historically posted approaches a few weeks ago and had expected to be assigned Bib 194 and instead I have been assigned 247. It's not a big deal and I'm not requesting a change, just curious if i followed the logic correctly. Thanks!
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General Discussion / Live Forward! Team Returns for 13th Year
« Last post by Tom Everson on March 27, 2019, 03:33:53 PM »
Our Live Forward! team returns for the 13th year running. We run to honor loved ones who died in traffic incidents. We have 36 team members so far. If any of you need more information or would like to join us, email me @ [email protected]  You can also learn more @ https://www.keepkidsalivedrive25.org/runtoremember
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